Carol:
Welcome. Welcome back to the podcast. Today's conversation takes us to one of the largest public transit systems in North America, the Toronto Transit Commission, and to the leader responsible for its people. Shakira Naraine is TTC's Chief People and Culture Officer, and she came to that role after 25 years in Canada's federal government, where she led multidisciplinary HR teams across agencies, like Public Services and Procurement Canada, Indigenous and Northern Affairs, and Health Canada. At one point, she was leading People Development and HR services for roughly 18,000 federal employees. For 13 years, she has trained public servants across Canada in strategic leadership and HR management, so developing other leaders has been a throughline in her career. Now, since joining the TTC in 2023, she's been shaping culture, workforce stability, and labor partnerships for an agency that moves over a million writers every weekday, so you can see why I'm excited to have her here as my guest today. Shakira, welcome to the podcast, and thanks for being here.
Shakira:
Thank you so much, Dr. Carol. I really appreciate it. Honored to be here.
Carol:
Awesome. Well, I'd like to start with your journey. I love to hear how leaders got to where they are now and your journey from federal government to the 13 years of training public servants across Canada to transit. And so I'm curious, what pulled you into this work that you're doing now? And through that journey, what moments or experiences have shaped your leadership?
Shakira:
Okay, thanks. Always a good place to start. However, from a starting perspective, I think I have to go back just a little further and say what piqued my curiosity about this type of work. I think it was always trying to understand the underpinnings of human behavior and why people make the decisions that they do. I specialized in psychology in university with a goal of trying to understand, "Okay, is it nature? Is it nurture? Is it all biological? How much do our circumstances or our environments or contexts shape how we decide how we go forward?" And working all the part-time jobs I did when I was coming up in school and whatnot, sometimes you'd see how people would behave or even in my own family and you question and think, "What would lead you to do that? Why in this given set of circumstances when I think you should go one way, you chose to say this or to do that?" And I really do think that that's something to be studied and it made for a good four years at university.
Shakira:
So that being said, when I went into professional career and I entered the world of human resources, it was clear that I got to carry a lot of that with how people behave in the workplace. And then understanding large public service organizations, like I said, I came up through the Federal Public Service, every decision you make has to go through how many layers of approval. You have to remember that you're not doing it for a private enterprise just to make money, you're doing it for all the citizens of whatever level government you're doing, so the federal government, it's for every Canadian. And so making sure that you realize the gravity of how important decision-making it is and how every business decision shapes policy or actions, but it all comes down to human behavior and how people understand what's being done. Do they understand the immediate, the long-term impacts?
Shakira:
And so I joined HR, this is now getting, I think, to answer your question, I joined HR because I thought, let me help people make better decisions and let me learn along the way. Let me have a role in making sure that people are prioritizing the right things, that they're taking into consideration what biases they might be carrying into decision-making, and that they're seeing other perspectives that they might not always have access to. So I think saying that within the federal government across multiple departments, it was great, fantastic learning experience in every single one, because you get to do what you do with different mandates and you're constantly learning and growing, which I think is essential.
Shakira:
Now, fast-forward to leaving that and joining the TTC, that was a whirlwind because I was in an environment where I was so comfortable within the federal framework. And it's nice as you get older to say, "Oh yeah, I know how this operates. I know how this runs," and you can just keep doing your craft knowing that the learning curve isn't as steep anymore. And I left that comfort. And I understand, you don't change, you don't grow, and it hurt on a few fronts, a good hurt. But going into a municipal organization now, different level of politics, different way of governing, different method of decision-making, because now we report to a board as well. And just the operational environment, it's 24/7.
Shakira:
Our role is to keep the city moving in a safe and reliable way, and everything that happens behind that, nobody cares. Nobody sees it. They just want to make sure at the end of the day, they get from point A to B, and that it's a positive experience. Being in an enabling function for as long as I have been, there's so much that goes into that. It's exciting to be a part of that, and I would say that's why I still do it. I'm still here. I might have more work to do covering up the grays, but it's all good. It's all good.
Carol:
Yeah, speaking of which I need to get back to.
Shakira:
You look great. All good.
Carol:
I'm well overdue. I love what you said around understanding, at least the way that I heard, it's really understanding people. You've talked about the underpinnings of human behavior, like why they do what they do, but I kind of categorize that as understanding people and the layers of systems in which they work and operate, and how that may ebb and flow and shift so that they can make better decisions. And yeah, now you're in a different system, layers of different systems that you're operating in, so that's definitely a learning curve. I'm curious, is that still an underpinning of how you think and work in your leadership that it's still, even with all these different layers, it's still fundamentally understanding the human behavior, why they do what they do, and to help them make better decisions? Is that still a guiding principle for you as you came into TTC?
Shakira:
Yes, and I would say absolutely yes. And you know why? It's because it doesn't change. Meaning that if we're talking about business, if we're talking about volunteer work, whatever it is, it's people who are leading all of that. When you look at decision-making and what is in people's best interests, there's a very strong filter they apply in terms of what they know, what they define as security, as comfort, as good stewardship, what their accountabilities are. They all go into it. It's a very personal experience because we're people. So whether we're talking about making decisions about technology adoption in certain companies, whether we're talking about what policy is going to get implemented, whether we're talking about labor relations, a big part of my role, you've got people making decisions. Wherever you have people making decisions, you've got people who have a list of needs that they're carrying internally, whether it's basic physiological or safety needs, whether it's the need for power and dominance. It's all driven at that core level, and I think seeing how that plays out in larger organizations or different spheres, that still excites me in a large way, so yeah.
Carol:
That's fantastic. In light of that, in 2024, the TTC and its largest union reached a deal in the early morning hours, which can be stressful, and as a previous labor and employment attorney, I've had many of those early morning hours myself at the bargaining table. I'm curious, when the pressure and stakes are high and you're under real deadline pressures and things of that nature, what keeps you grounded in your values as opposed to reacting in the moment? Because people are messy. We're people.
Shakira:
For sure, for sure.
Carol:
And you have to take them as they come and you're understanding them, so when things become pressurous and high stake, what keeps you grounded in your values around that?
Shakira:
Good question. One that I asked myself a few times during that whole situation. I think what's important and what I think of often is the saying "eyes on the prize." Right in front of you, you have situations where people are getting tense because how are people going to get from A to B the next day? They might not care about what's going on behind the scenes. You've got workers who feel like for years we've been waiting to fight for our rights because they just got the right to strike back. They were in essential service prior to that, so there's something to prove, something to say, something to show. You've got your political masters, who feel like politically, we got to make sure this works. They're in power for a reason, and if they were voted in because of what they believe in fundamentally, they've got to continue toeing that storyline.
Shakira:
When you look at all of the different perspectives, you've got the executive, the political, the operational, the very personal for some people, you have to keep your eyes on the prize, meaning what comes after all of this? Whether we strike, whether we settle, whether we do whatever we do, the dance that has to be done. At the end of the day, we have to get to a deal. Something's going to happen. Either we're going to get to deal, they're going to be legislated back to work. But after that, the prize is you're back in your job and you have to make this work, so what is that relationship going to look like? When I say eyes on the prize, it means I know that at the end of all this, the sun is going to set, it's going to rise again, and we're going to be back in the workplace working together. How do we protect that relationship going forward?
Shakira:
If in the moment I want to scream and be like, "Can't you listen to me?" Or, "What difference does, I don't know, 0.1% make?" I'm making that up, but at the end of the day, you do have to acknowledge what's important to all of these parties and just find the balance that you can live with. For all of them, it might not be their top desired outcome, but if it's something that we can all live with and work with going forward and it sets a stage for another few years of a good working relationship that we can move forward with, that's the prize. And so I think it's not reacting in the moment, it's thinking through all of this and responding in a thoughtful and responsible way. Easier said than done if I may add, but that's it.
Carol:
Well, it's so important to have something that can ground you in the moments of chaos that's happening around you. And so I love thinking about not just looking at today, but looking at what is the future going to look like and keeping your eyes on understanding that what we create today, we're going to have to live with tomorrow, so is that the tomorrow we want to create?
Shakira:
Exactly.
Carol:
And so I think that's amazing. Yeah, yeah. It's great to have that grounding thing. I'm curious, because you sit at that intersection of what people need, what the organization can afford, what public agencies are doing from the political perspective, how are you able as someone who's leading people, training other leaders, supporting other leaders, developing other leaders, and so that whatever messaging gets trickled down through the rest of the employees, how are you supporting and framing their development that is allowing them to do things like keep their eyes on the prize or to think about the underpinnings of people and knowing that people are a priority?
Shakira:
Yeah. I think that is so much a two-way street. It's a very late interaction. What I mean by that is we're learning from each other. I come in there, sure, I have the title of chief people and culture officer. I may have experience doing leadership development and all kinds of training in the past. I'm not proven to them, number one. And number two, I'm new to TTC. I don't know how TTC works inside out. I've got just as much to learn from them as they have to learn from me. I think one thing that's worked really well for me so far is when I approach the situation from, "This is what I would love to learn from you, and this is what I have to share with you that may help you along your journey." And so it gives them an opportunity to showcase a bit what they know, help teach me how it works.
Shakira:
And that really does help me, because if I'm trying to teach them anything along the lines of leadership development, the importance of listening, what does it mean to lead a psychologically safe space and all that kind of stuff, if I understand better how the operations work, then I can give them real life, tangible examples, nuggets of things that they can practice and do that helps them. Because anyone can read a book, we've all been there. But when it comes to putting something in practice, it's a completely different ballgame. I remember, for example, training in HR, learning about the grievance process and supporting my clients when they received grievances. Then I remember one of my first management roles, receiving a grievance where my name was all over it because I was challenged the way I was performance managing someone.
Shakira:
And I remember thinking, "Me? I teach this stuff. What do you mean somebody has my name attached to and they don't like the way I'm doing this?" And it felt very personal. That totally reframed my thinking to say, "My goodness, don't forget that there is a human being," and coming from me, "Don't forget there's a human being underneath all of this who feels, reacts, has to respond, deal with emotions, be professional throughout all of this. You can never lose sight of what that feels like when you're trying to exchange knowledge with someone else. I think just making sure people can know that they have something to contribute, that they're an active participant, that there's opportunities to practice, that there's no perfect leadership style because it depends on who you are and what is going to work for you so that you can do it authentically. All that stuff.
Shakira:
I think what I like to think is you teach them how to fish in terms of how to develop your own leadership style, what's comfortable for you in your skin, and help you see what the outcomes are going to be, that eyes on the prize for you.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. That's really great. I hear in that you respecting what people are bringing to the table, and that it's not about you being the all-knowing, but you being the one that has the tools that are able to come and connect to wherever they are wherever they may be at that moment, and then build something together, co-creating something as they think about their leadership, which I think is a lot probably to do with the psychology training and just really observing before jumping in there and doing. That's for, for a lot of leaders, they feel stressed with having to accomplish and achieve and deliver results and want to be all-knowing and be leading the charge, and I think they forget that piece of just slowing down and listening.
Shakira:
Absolutely, and realizing that they create a lot of this. Back to what you're saying, the basic neuroscience, we remember better what we generate, what we create. So if they're part of that co-creation and they're learning about their own style and what works for them and generating their own ideas, that's what's going to stick with them, not something that Shakira tells them one day and they've got to remember it six months down the road. When you're creating something like that together, it can be really exciting and it'll stick some more.
Carol:
Yeah. You mentioned psychological safety, and I'm curious, you've been recognized for building strong union partnerships, and you've even said that your people-first approach has supported smoother negotiations in a more unified culture, and most of your workforce is represented operators, maintenance, and the like, all different priorities. How do you build trust across functions and personalities and priorities? Is it more of the kind of things that you were saying in terms of listening, or what other kind of things are you doing to really help build trust and that psychological safety within your workspace?
Shakira:
When I think about that, I have the most rudimentary answer to psychological safety. I've seen a lot of really fancy definitions, a lot of jargon in there. But the way I like to think of it, the very simple mind is how comfortable are people telling me stuff? You got to build a relationship, you've got to nurture it, you got to say good morning, good afternoon, you have to ask a little bit about them because if they start sharing the little things and they know you're open to hearing the little things and you care to hear the little things, they're going to tell you the things that really matter. They're going to tell you the things that are hard to hear. They're going to disagree with me. They're going to challenge me. They're going to tell me things that seem like they're impossible to fix burdens that they're carrying, but now they've shared it so we can address it together.
Shakira:
So when it comes to psychological safety, I really think that it starts that small, that if you build a relationship, you show the openness, you come from a place where you don't judge right away unless they specifically ask you for judgment. You demonstrate that you, in the case of a leader, you take your role seriously and that if they're looking to you to deal with a performance management concern somewhere else, you deal with that and it builds up their confidence that you're there to carry out your job.
Shakira:
To your question about how to build it, I genuinely believe it is one small interaction at a time. Coming into a new organization as the chief people officer at the time, it was just chief people officer then the culture came a little bit later after a re-org. It was literally that because I was coming into an organization here, 18,000 people all in Toronto, versus my last department, which was 18,000, but spread out across Canada. And there were so many people to meet, so many people to listen to, and what I had to extract from a lot of those conversations are, what is the culture that they're telling me exists here? What do they feel is missing? What do they expect from me in my role? What do they want to see from a CPO in terms of what she can help deliver?
Shakira:
And I think that's where you start listening to people, that's when they start feeling safe because they feel seen, they feel heard, and now they're comfortable giving you the feedback that you need. After years of working in unionized environments especially, I have had so many of my union rep leader friends tell me, "Shakira, you might get to know a lot, but you will never know the full story the way the union rep will." And they're right, but how do you build that trust, and it's not that I'm in competition with them, but the only way you'll build that trust is if they know you're there for them and you know you want to work on a problem together. Co-create, but co-solve solutions if that's even a word.
Carol:
Yeah. Yeah. I love the one small interaction at a time, but I bet too, what keeps it going too is accountability and consistency.
Shakira:
Absolutely.
Carol:
So, if you solve the small step, if you don't react or make people feel intimidated or shameful or in trouble if they come to you, that you're constantly demonstrating that so that that trust grows and builds so that they continue to be able to share those things with you and not hide them or sweep them under the rug or things of that nature.
Shakira:
Yeah, there is a huge accountability component to that in the sense also that you're going to hear a lot of really tough things. Sometimes you need to be able to repeat that back to them, so that they know they've been heard. So coming into the environment I'm in right now, I'll just use a very factual example. I'm coming up to my third year on the job and we're on our third CEO in that time period. I have enjoyed working with all of them, including my current one. They've got three very different leadership styles. I would put them as three points on an equilateral triangle if I had to compare the three of them, which means you have to change and adapt that sort of way.
Shakira:
What does psychological safety look to the other 18,000 who might not interact with the CEOs as directly as I do because I report to that individual? That's been an interesting question, right? Because you have to translate that leadership vision down to every corner of the organization. They need to know how that leader envisions leadership in general tolerating or addressing problems, what their vision is, and how do you create safety in a space like that when you see so much movement at the top and then wondering about human nature? You go right back to your own job security. What's the vision? Do I still have a role here? How much do they value this particular role? That's a real-life example that I've had to navigate a couple of times already. And yeah, it involves a lot of acknowledging what the concern is, letting them know it's not ridiculous that you're feeling this way. What you're feeling is what you're feeling, which means it's valid. Now, let's help address it and talk about what that looks like in everyday practice.
Shakira:
But that's how you have to get in the trenches with them. Make sure you understand, you listen, you understand what they're saying, make sure you know what they're asking of you too. Don't just go offering to solve the problem because that might not be what they're looking for.
Carol:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. You said something that I thought was curious, is that they added culture to your title. I know in the States we have a different relationship with that currently, and so I'm curious, I'll just keep it there.
Shakira:
I'll put it safe, yeah.
Carol:
I'm curious, what was the impetus for the change and what does that mean now for your role?
Shakira:
Yeah, so it was specifically as a result of an organizational change. At the time, there was a chief people officer, that was me who came into the organization, and there was a chief diversity officer. They decided to do eventually is collapse the two roles and so collapse the two organizations under it, and so you didn't want to just absorb the portion of that work. And the way you acknowledge it is say, "This is how important culture is to us, so even though the organization decided to eliminate that role, doesn't mean that we're eliminating functions underneath that contribute to something that is very much needed, which is focus on culture." We just added that to the title and it became CPCO.
Carol:
Got you. Got you. Okay. Okay. You mentioned something around technology or adaption or technological adaption, so I'm just thinking about AI from that perspective. And I know TTC's corporate plan calls for building a future-ready workforce, and every transit agency I work with is wrestling with what AI means for their people, from scheduling to maintenance, to HR itself. I'm curious, as AI reshapes how teams work, how are you keeping people, not just technology, at the center of those conversations and decisions?
Shakira:
Good question and timely. I'm sure every organization is thinking about this as well. I think one way we have to think about it, let's start right from the framing. A lot of people talk about it as a technology conversation or a technology or AI strategy. It's not, in my opinion. I think that technology should enable a better employee experience. It's still a people story. The objective is how people are going to have improved work lives and deliver better service because of technology, not just are we going to get to know the latest, coolest technology out there? And then, I do strongly believe that AI succeeds or the adoption succeeds when the organization can still focus on the elements that only humans can do. When you look at human judgment, when you look at critical thinking, when you look at trust, when you look at relationship building, those are things that are uniquely and specially human.
Shakira:
I'm not saying that AI can't help with that because what I might come to a little bit later is how AI has personally helped me as a leader, because very often I use it as a bit of a sounding board. I use it as a space sometimes to just reframe my thinking and share another perspective back to me. But in terms of strategies you develop and making people comfortable with how it can help, it doesn't mean how it can replace. It might replace certain tasks, but if it replaced certain tasks, what does that free you up to do? And how does the work we do or how do the services we deliver change or improve as a result of that adoption? So, I think we have to look at it always as a people strategy conversation first, not just technology. Let's become experts at using it. Framing is really, really important.
Carol:
Yeah, I completely agree with that. That's one of the things that I talk with organizations about is that that framing comes before governance and structure and evaluation, that you have to be able to be clear about even why and who you're going to be once you use it and what significance that it's going to have. And I know there's been a lot of ... I've read so many studies of, one more recently about how, what is it? It's like 40% or 50% or 60% of people are already using it. And so before organizations have had that framing conversation. And so, how do you then bring everyone onto the same page around it so that you're making sure that the use of it is appropriate and not causing any harm?
Carol:
Because people may not have thought about the type of data they're putting in there or able to really understand and rationalize the data they're getting out or analyze it in a way that makes a lot of sense. I'm just curious, have you all been in the middle of that or having those kind of conversations and how are you bringing that all around? And then, the only other thing in light with that too is there's things about people trusting what AI says versus what people are saying and all of that. It's a messy moment in the moment that we have with it.
Shakira:
It is. It is a messy moment. I have to say, I love mess though because that always brings tons of opportunity and exploration. At TTC, let me use the example of adopting Copilot for everyone. Copilot is the AI system that we use. Most people are just most familiar with ChatGPT and people might use it on their personal device, but on our workspace, we have to use Copilot. Coming into the time before everybody had access to Copilot, we heard everything from people saying they use it just like Google, which kind of defeats the purpose because it's so much more than just the old version of Google. Anyway, I put it that way. You had some people who would say they would use it to help them draft certain messages.
Shakira:
You just heard from me how I personally use it sometimes where I just put my stream of consciousness thinking in there and say, "Help me make sense of this or help me sequentially order what my next steps are." When you're coming from a place It's where people are flailing in a sense, not in a bad way, but saying, "How do I even use this thing? How do I maximize its potential to actually add value to my life?" Thankfully, we got to a point where we had our IT folks come in, give us a good demonstration, at least for the senior management team first about here's what it is. Here's what some of the lingo means. Here's how you can use it. And it was a demonstration of what it does. That goes back to something else that I was mentioning.
Shakira:
What is uniquely human about that experience? You still have someone holding the hand of a group of people saying, "It's okay, let me show you how this works. You can still look and play with a tool, but I'm still here to show you and to ... " So having that human experience is still really important. Then when it got down to, okay, this is what you can use Copilot for, this is how it can help, et cetera, it started branching off into other conversations, like some of the more operations-focused stuff that we're using on our vehicles, how certain AI systems can work there. And it was more the conversation of, "Here's how it can help us," as opposed to "It's going to take over," like 1984, the Terminator film kind of thing.
Carol:
Which is everyone's thought.
Shakira:
Everyone's thought is that it's going to take over and that it's going to replace and discussions that we have, and you see wording written into some collective agreements about technology should not be replacing people because that's the fear. So how do you address the fear head on? You have to be able to say, "This is the type of thing that we are going to use it for. Here's how it's going to help." But what you do have to be prepared for is your job might look different. We might have to re-skill you. We might have to upskill you to do something else. We still need you though, but here's how it's going to help our service, I think. Once you maintain that safety there, go back to that word safety, you have to make these things not as threatening. You have to increase the familiarity with them. You have to let people reach out and touch and experience what the benefits are. Because if you keep it over here, like something that's just exciting but in the unknown, that doesn't work for humans.
Carol:
Yeah. It's interesting because this whole conversation around AI, talking about the future of work and future-ready capabilities and helping people see a bigger vision of what could be, maybe not as bad as Terminator, but definitely, what's possible? And taking those, moving people to out of comfort zones into the possibilities of what could be. When something breaks or goes sideways as you're moving people in that direction, what do you do to turn it into a learning opportunity, so that things like we just talked about, fear or blame or silence or resistance, doesn't stop the progress in terms of stepping into the vision and stepping into what's possible? And that may be not just AI, but other issues around transit and where transit is moving forward in the future.
Shakira:
Yeah. I love that question, and the reason why I love it is because it's such a fundamentally human answer. Whether it's AI, whether it's something else, I think when you come into those circumstances, one of the first thing is to pause, acknowledge the discomfort that someone is experiencing. Show that you're listening, show that you acknowledge what they're feeling, even if you don't relate or you feel like you might have responded or reacted differently. Acknowledge the pain. Validate people's feelings in so far as you can and articulate it back so that they know it's okay to talk about it, so that there's no shame in it, there's no embarrassment in it. This is what you're feeling. This is what it's called. Is that correct? Does that feel right? There's no fear, there's no shame, there's no blame. It's just, this is what we have. Let's get to it together.
Shakira:
Sometimes what I like to do, you add humor, so you disarm it a little bit. It's something that you can look at it from another perspective and realize one day you're going to look back and you're really going to laugh. We might not be laughing about it right now, but see the humor in it from another perspective as well. I think that whole acknowledgement, listening, validating, disarming, all of that comes first. And then, it also helps sometimes to acknowledge the temporal nature of it, temporary. I think I said it already before, I say this to my kids all the time. The sun is going to set and it's going to rise again. Things are going to move forward, which means this is not going to be on fire for the whole time, which means our next step is to figure out what is the next step to get us to eyes on that prize? How are we going to fix this?
Shakira:
Acknowledge it's a hiccup along the way, learn what we need to learn, fix what we need to fix to get us back on track. Remember, we are on a track to go somewhere, so remind ourself what that prize is. And I think when it comes to disarming people, letting people know they're not alone, letting them know that there's learning in this and that the prize is still there at the end. Hopefully, it is unless that changed. I think that helps. And some people just need that sort of steady ore in the water as they're going along in their journey. And sometimes that's what I like to say my team or myself can provide for people.
Carol:
Yeah, I love that too. I wrote that pause, acknowledge what's going on, validate their feelings, and then articulate it back to them to make sure you heard it well. I love that as a formula to really, when you're dealing with any kind of change and uncertainty. But I think the other thing you said earlier, as I hear you speak, reminds me a lot of that cognitive behavioral things around helping people to reframe their thinking. Sometimes we have such doomsday thinking and we often think that our thoughts and opinions are facts when they're just opinions, not facts.
Shakira:
Yeah, or feelings.
Carol:
Right, right. And so thinking something is horrible doesn't mean it is. Like you said, if you have a different perspective around it, that it's temporal or it's really not as impactful, that you actually can engage with it in a different mindset, if you will, as opposed to the more negative one. And so that's the place where we have control over it. We can change and shift, not the circumstance itself, but how we are approached to it or our thought or feelings around it as well. It sounds a lot when I hear you talk that that's an aspect of it too, is helping people to expand their way of thinking and their perspective so that they're not stuck in just this kind of myopic way or one way of going.
Shakira:
Yeah. And I think that it's so right because if I think about organizational transformation, that's something that we're dealing with quite a bit now. I'm just talking about organizational structure changes that can really rattle people who are in it. But then, from the outside, whether it's in my role or whether it's in the CEO's role or whatever leader's role, they might be making a change for increased efficiency and better outcomes. And we might be able to easily see it from that perspective, but the people who are impacted by the change might feel like, "I'm not good enough. I'm not delivering enough. Maybe I'm not seen in terms of the value I bring to the organization. So why is this stopping? Why is this changing?"
Shakira:
Transformation is a very human experience as well, and if we don't acknowledge that component of it, to what you were just talking about, it can fail because you'll have people who are not on board. The reframing, like we were just talking about, in terms of making sure there's an awareness on their part of what's happening, that they have the desire to move in the same direction and be a part of it as well is important. One thing I will also add to that is that is something where AI has helped me in my role. I think I used the example of when I've got these big issues, I've got neurons that are firing off all over the place, and it's really hard sometimes because the ideas are going at a mile a minute.
Shakira:
Before my relationship with Copilot blossomed, my strategy was I would take a pile of stickies and I would write an idea down, I would smack it, I would write all the ideas down. And when I was done and I felt like I did a mind dump, I would have a desk full of stickies. And then, what I would do is take it and organize it into different piles. This is just a weird little system that I used, but whatever it worked for me. But that's time-consuming. Now, what I can do is I can use a function where I dictate into Copilot everything I'm thinking, and it looks like a hot mess, let me tell you, because if somebody were to go back and read the paragraph that I just dictated, just be like, "What's going on in her mind?"
Shakira:
But then I finish it off with the question of, "Help me frame this in some sequential order or help me prioritize into what my immediate next steps will be. And if it changes the prize at the end." That's the conversation, for lack of a better term, that I say that I have with Copilot. Now, when I have got these big massive organizational problems that have got people and operational impacts, and then I've got to remember the politics, because it just seems like so much at once. And then, I've got Copilot that will spit something back to me, but the decisions are still mine. The observations are still mine. The accountability is still mine. It's not technology taking away something, it's just helping me mold it or structure it a little bit differently.
Shakira:
I still feel like I have ownership, but I feel like I had a little extra help, and it took me now a bit less time, which means I'm freed up to do something else. I just thought that would be useful to throw in there to talk about that's how technology can even help very human feeling and experience that we have to deal with.
Carol:
Yeah, I think that is really what it's supposed to be for. If you think about it, if you use it as a tool to speed up the mundane, if you will, it should free you up for higher level thinking and analysis and problem-solving and creativity and innovation. Because if you can get to those ideas quicker, you can implement them more effectively. And the cool thing about it is that it can poke holes in what you're thinking or give you other ideas that you may not have thought about, which could be really helpful.
Shakira:
Yes, and I ask for that. I say, "Be critical with me. Tell me what I'm missing. Tell me what I forgot." I will specifically put that in as prompt.
Carol:
Yeah. It makes me wonder how much, I know they do this in the pharma industry a little bit, or at least some organizations do this, is really helping people understand how to create good prompts, how to ask good questions of the system, like you just outlined to feed it in there, but ask really good questions so that, again, you're getting good stuff out of there, so you're using it effectively. I'm not sure how many people are doing that yet.
Shakira:
I don't know, to be honest, and I have all the warnings, shall I say, from our IT specialists in terms of be careful what you put in there, so I do. To share something very human, if it's personal, I will never put names in there, of course, that goes without saying. But I might say, "I have a friend." I don't know if the computer knows any better. I don't want to know if it knows better, but I might just say, "I have a friend," or I might say, "Please forget this conversation at the end." In other words, in my future prompts, because it tends to bring up stuff that happened past conversations, I can say, "Forget this conversation," meaning don't bring it up to me again. Now, I don't know if that means somebody could dig something out later. I'm not that paranoid, but you have to exercise care and caution for sure.
Carol:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm curious, the last question that I have for you is, you've developed leaders your entire career in the classrooms and in government and now across one of the biggest transit systems on the continent. If you could leave leaders with one shift, one practice, one mindset to be more people-forward, what would it be? What would you say?
Shakira:
I would say catch people doing something right everyday and acknowledge them and thank them for it. There is, I say, an inner immigrant mentality in me. I wasn't born here. I came here, I watched my parents struggle. To know the value of something you can do that's free, it just costs you a little effort and a little time and the difference it can make. I think as senior leaders in an organization, we are so busy solving big problems, digging into the big issues, trying to distinguish between the urgent immediate fires and the important long-term strategic stuff that we lose sight of how important we are as leaders to our people. And to be able to tell somebody, "I really like how you did X. Great job." Or, "I'd love to see more of that tomorrow. Thank you for everything you do." What did that take? Nothing.
Shakira:
Now, it has to be meaningful. It can't just be performative. But in the spirit of building a team culture, building that psychological safety, letting people know that they're seen, because again, the fundamental human desire we have is that people do notice us and notice the good things. I think it's that simple. Catch somebody doing something right every single day. And I don't know how big your team is, but spread the love and share that.
Shakira:
And then, one of a good pieces of advice that I heard from a leader years ago, she said, "You can have the big title and you can wear the position. Everyone knows you wear the power shoes. You don't have to lord it over them. You walk gently so that the times when you do need to stomp, people will listen. If they know that I'm constantly giving good feedback where it is due, when I have to give constructive feedback or when I have to deliver a difficult message, I need to know that I'm listened to just the same. And I don't think people will respect it as much. I don't think they'll feel it as much if all Shakira ever does is come down on them for what they're doing wrong and never notice what they're doing right.
Carol:
Yeah. I think that's so good. Again, I think I may have mentioned something like this earlier, but I think sometimes people just misconstrue what leadership is and they think it has to carry the big stick and be the one in charge and make everyone afraid of them. Everyone needs to jump when they say jump. And they misconstrue, I think that by catching people doing something good and acknowledging it feels maybe like it's weak or it's not what they ... that people won't respect their leadership or something of that nature. And so, I love what your person shared with you about they know you wear the shoes. You don't need to be stomping around in them all the time.
Shakira:
Exactly.
Carol:
But being able to, I think sometimes new leaders struggle with finding that balance of how do I still am engaging and respectful and catching people doing something nice without them thinking that I'm trying to be their buddy, but I'm still in a leadership position because if they're not doing something, well, I need to respond to that too. And that's such an interesting balance and dance. I know I said that was the last question, but I'm curious how you carry that balance and help people do that as well.
Shakira:
I think the important part is, in order for it to be genuine, you have to make it a regular habit. Some of the leadership advice that I've provided in previous roles, I challenged them to do that. And some of them said, "I'm not going to be taken seriously because I've never done this before." And I was like, "You got to start somewhere." And then I said, "All the more reason why you need to do it every day. Show them it's a new muscle that you're developing. Show them that it's a new habit you're creating. Let them observe, say, "I never did this," or "She never did this before, but she's starting to do it now." Let them ask the question, what is she trying to create? Better yet, pay it forward. Let them pay it forward. So it's never too late to start.
Shakira:
And even though it feels weird, anything feels weird when you're starting. I'm sure a baby feels weird when they start to walk. I'm sure people feel weird when they learn how to swim. It's a new muscle, it's a new strength, but it's amazing. Again, I'm going to say eyes on the prize when you think about what you create at the end. And I think in my personal experience, I have just been so grateful that I had good leaders to show me good examples along the way, because I have been in multiple situations where I have to deliver really difficult, challenging messages to people.
Shakira:
But I can say with confidence that it has been taken better than I thought internally, simply because I had a reputation for not just delivering the bad stuff. And they knew that there was a lot of positive cred built in the bank already so that when the negative stuff comes along, there's trust. And I think without trust, without that relationship, you don't have a lot to go on as a leader. You won't be respected anyway, and I don't know if you can really do this and be satisfied knowing that the respect isn't there.
Carol:
Yeah, I love that, building a reputation. This was so great. Shakira, thank you so much for what you shared. My doctorate is in human and organizational systems, so everything you said, it's like music to my ears.
Shakira:
Oh, good. I'm glad to hear that. So I'm on a good track.
Carol:
It's just so aligned and I just so appreciate the conversation. I think what I'm taking away from this conversation is that when you're building a culture of trust and safety at scale and you're leading change, that it's about, as you talked about, the small steps, the everyday actions, the consistency, the just getting started, those people first steps that you just repeat, you just set it to repeat over and over again so that you build that reputation and that people see what you stand for and what you're about in the organization, so thank you.
Shakira:
No, thank you. It's been great. I almost feel like it was a refresher exam for me. It's been really, really good, so I appreciate the conversation. Thank you.
Carol:
Oh, thank you, yeah. I just think it's great, particularly in a demanding environment where everything is changing and moving. I love how you just slow it down and just take the small consistent steps. Just start somewhere, pause and take a breath and just move. Yeah, that sounds like an incredible recipe for success. I'm sure it's what served you well.
Shakira:
It did. Sometimes I wish we remembered that with motherhood, because that's not always the. But I have to remember, it applies in different contexts too. I know we were just talking about work, but yeah.
Carol:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Well, and listen, to everyone listening, thank you so much for joining this conversation. And if it sparks something for you, share it with a leader in your world who needs to hear it. You can learn more about our work at thriveaccessgroup.com, and you can always reach out to us at hello@thriveaccessgroup.com as well. Until next time, keep leading people forward, and I'll see you soon.
