Carol:
Welcome, welcome to the People-Forward Leadership Podcast. Every once in a while, a leader steps into a role at the exact moment history decides to show up, and my guest today is living that moment right now. Tiffany Gunter is the CEO and general manager of SMART, the Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation, where she leads strategy, operations, and service delivery across a 2000-square mile transit system serving Southeast Michigan. She spent more than 20 years working in transportation, planning, and public policy across the region with leadership roles at Southeast Michigan Council of Governments and the Regional Transit Authority of Southeast Michigan, plus experience in higher education, automotive, and retail before that. She joined SMART in 2022 as deputy general manager and was named CEO in 2025. And since then, SMART has seen a 30% rise in ridership, which is phenomenal. And what you are about to hear is a leader who insists on dignity for her writers and clarity for her people. Please welcome to the podcast, Tiffany Gunter. Welcome to the show.
Tiffany:
Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Carol. Oh, what an intro. I feel very humbled already.
Carol:
Well, it is an honor to have you here. And listen, I would love to start with your story. I love that you grew up riding the very system that you now run. And one writer described your rise this way, that you prepared, served, and rose, which I love. So I would love for you to tell us about your leadership journey and what pulled you into the work that you're doing right now.
Tiffany:
Oh, wow. Okay. So coming up, I have three older brothers and I'm the baby and the only girl. So when we got around, pretty much I had to go wherever they went. And so going to the movies, into the mall, you go with the system. And when I was just a toddler, my mom used the system to be able to get to school. She went to Marygrove College, and when she did not have access to a vehicle, she dragged me along as a toddler, sucking my thumb with my teddy bear and hopping on then the DDOT system. So DDOT and Smart kind of operate in the same space. And it's just been the experience of that's just a way of which people can commute. And so it wasn't a foreign concept to me.
And as I started to come up in my professional career, I did private sector work. I worked, you said automotive and retail. And I sent a joke email. This is a true story. I sent a joke email to a former professor. I had graduated from University of Michigan, and I had a minor in criminal justice. These were the days of Enron. So business and criminal justice, they kind of went ... You get it. And so I sent him a joke and he sends me back a job description for an urban planner, and he worked as a HR director at SimCog. And I was like, "What is this?" I had never really thought about it. Most people don't think about their built environment. You just use it. You don't think about how it got there. And so he says, "Come on, just interview. I promise you, this is a perfect fit. I know you well enough to know." So I went and I interviewed, I was recent graduate, a little haughty, "I could do this job."
And as I was leaving, they made the job offer, but it was a severe ... It was a public sector job. I worked private sector. It was a severe pay ... noticeably different. And so I was like, "Whoa, I don't know about this." So I called my dad, called my dad, God rest his soul, called my dad and he said, "Baby girl, do they have a pension?" And I started laughing. I said, "Yeah, they said something about a pension." I'm in my early 20s. Kids aren't worried about pensions.
He says, "Take that job." He said, "You don't really love what you're doing right now. Go see if this is something that you love. You're young enough. Try something new." And so I did it. And I got there, I asked them, this is hilarious, and now that I think about it, they were pretty open about where I could fit in because I wasn't an urban planner. So I asked them, "What's the hardest thing you have to do?" And they told me, they kind of snickered, they said, "Public transit." I said, "I'll take it." That was in 2004.
Carol:
Wow.
Tiffany:
And I think to myself, "What made me like this? I don't know." And so I started moving in that direction, trying to understand the system, continued to develop. We got to the point where we had the Super Bowl hosted here in Detroit, and the powers that be were not happy with the lack of mobility in this region. And that changed the agenda. It was the little work that we were doing to try to make the system work behind the scenes. But when that power meant that pressure of planning, it was like, this is the time to go. And so the RTA was created in 2012, same year my son was born. I call him my RTA baby. So we went on a journey to get a all-in system then for Wayne, Oakland and Macomb and Washtenaw. And it failed by one percentage point. One percentage point. Was heartbreaking. It was 18,000 votes in this one thing and I'll always remember because you keep watching those numbers and it's a close race, and then right at the end they ripped your heart out.
So I took a break. I took a break from public transit for a while. I went to city management. I worked for a city here in Oakland County, Birmingham, Michigan, a very affluent city. And it was an experience. I was there for three years and because I worked in public transit, I never worked in a city that had resources. And so it's going to sound a little weird, but I love a challenge. And so after a while it was kind of like-
Carol:
Clearly.
Tiffany:
Oh, I'll give you one quick story. I don't want to talk forever, but one quick story. I remember when the kids were messing around in the park, there was a park with a fountain. It's around graduation time. And they put bubbles in the fountain. So I'm looking at these clouds going by. I'm the deputy city manager. My boss is out of town, so I'm like, "Hey, chief, police chief, what do we do with this?" He calls, "Oh, we just call up the desudser." And I was like, "I think he's hazing me." I was like, "Why don't you call the desudser?" Why don't you do it? And he did. He calls the Department of Public Works. And next thing I know, a tank rolls on to the park. And in 15 minutes, it just took the suds out and we were back to normal. And I was like, hmm.
Carol:
Wow.
Tiffany:
I learned a lot about fiscal responsibility and governance and how to manage a city. And then when I got the call to come back into public transportation, I said, "I'm going to go in with a different view, a different view of how cities see us, how you manage things more effectively." And I came back really stronger. And so as a deputy, I was able to get inside of my first public transit operation at SMART, and the rest is history. And then just this Tuesday, we went all in on the system. The thing that I tried in 2016, we accomplished it here on Tuesday with a 67% yes vote. And the last county that had opt-out communities, they're all in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb now, and I could not be more related.
Carol:
That is so exciting. Congratulations.
Tiffany:
Thank you.
Carol:
And what a journey. What a journey. And I love that you go after the hard things, but I love what you started, now you got to see the fruition for that 10 years later. I mean, what a grand thing to celebrate. Congratulations again on that.
Tiffany:
Thank you.
Carol:
Yeah. So your agency has been through some ups and downs, and you definitely just had this regional vote. You've had times where the regional vote and the regional dreams didn't go hand in hand, but they aligned today, which is fantastic. So I'm curious through that journey, this is kind of like a two-part question, is what moments or experience do you think have shaped how you lead? Because I know you talked a little bit about being over the city and having that kind of reshape things as you came back into transit. And when the pressure is high and the stakes are real like that, what keeps you grounded in your values so that you're not being reactionary in the moment, but that you're being thoughtful and deliberate in terms of the decisions that you make?
Tiffany:
Wow, let's see. Where do I begin on that one? The first part of that is to be present for your workforce. I recognized, in the many past roles that I've had, a distinct difference between leaders who were present and leaders who were absent and the product from that environment. And the ones who were available to the team who listened and really sought to resolve the issues that they were hearing, not just sort of yada, yada, yada, blow them off, but really fix it, is where I get that from. I've had a lot of good examples in leadership and I've had some not so great examples in leadership over the years. And that helped me develop a strategy. And that's why I started with respect, dignity, and integrity, and that's what we're going to lead with.
And my uncle used to say, "A fish stinks from the head. And so if you ain't no good, it's probably because you're not any good." And that stuck with me and I'd like to come out not stinking, if I could put it plainly. So one experience I had that really shaped me, I was working in the automotive industry and I worked for a man that was honest with me. And this story sometimes upsets some people, but I'm going to tell it anyway because it's my real lived experience. And so I worked as a material cost allocation manager. So basically after part market, Mopar after part market materials, you have to basically reduce down the cost to basically the lowest common denominator. So I had to find dollars out of parts for vehicles. And I was pretty good at my job. I was solving the kitting goals before the year even started because I figured out how to use data analytics before they did. I was young, new graduate.
So with that, I wanted to get promoted within that company. I'm like, "I'm doing this, I'm smashing this, so I definitely should be able to go further." So I asked him if ... I wanted to go into purchasing. And I said, "What would I have to do to get into the purchasing department?" And he asked me, and he liked me, my maiden name's Draper. He said, "Drape, stand up." I stood up, he said, "Take a look around. What do you see?" And I said, "I see white guys." Because I'm honest. Right?
Carol:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Tiffany:
Exactly. He says, "I know that you're smart and I know that you're capable, but that's not a department I'm going to tell you that you're going to be able to get into."
Carol:
Wow.
Tiffany:
And I was like, he said, "Now I could tell you a bunch of fluff about do this, do that, and then you just frustrate yourself. But hey, if you want to be in one of the non-core businesses, but that department right there, you're not getting in it." And I had a choice to make. I could get mad about it and try to force my way into that space or I could send a joke to my professor and find a whole new world. And that's what I did. I made a decision. And I think that that honesty, even though the world is different now and I do believe that that's not the way things work anymore for the most part, at that point in time, that was a fork in the road and I got to go on the right track, I believe, in that moment as opposed to frustrating myself and run in circles. I reset and went to a place that welcomed me in, and I was able to catapult my dream, get into my dream here that I didn't even know was my dream.
So that helped me understand people and dreams. So when somebody comes to me, a bus operator comes and says, "What do I have to do to be in your role?" I'm honest. It's not easy, but it's not impossible. There's a lot of general managers and CEOs that started off as bus operators, but you got to focus. You're going to have to put in a lot of work. You're going to take advantage of that tuition reimbursement. There's credentials that you're going to have to develop. And if you want to, I will hold your hand and help you figure that out to get you kick-started.
Once I think the team realized that about me, I got time. I got time for you. They started to trust. There was not a lot of trust in the beginning. Carol, I remember the first time I decided ... So we have three garages, a transit center, and a downtown office. They all pretty much functioned independently of each other. And I'm like, everybody has their own way of doing things, and that really doesn't work in one company if you want to be effective. So I started going to visit and I took my laptop to the driver's lounge at one of the garages one day. I sat down and we had this really long code you got to get into the system. By the time I looked up from my laptop, driver's lounge was ghost. They were gone. Everybody went and sat in their car because they were like, "We don't know why management's here. We don't fool with management, so we'll just sit in our cars and let her be in there on her own." And I was like, "Okay. I think I see a culture issue here that we need to address."
So you can't just go and touchdown into their space. You have to be welcomed in. So when we would have barbecues at the garages, I would participate. One thing people don't know about me, but they find out pretty quickly once they meet me, is I love to dance. Give me a line dance any day, a partner dance, a ballroom, a Chicago stuff. I'm all in. So when it came time to do a hustle, I was like, "Hey, I know this one." And they're like, "No, you don't." And I was like, "Y'all, don't let that Harvard fool you." I was raised in Detroit. I can be both brilliant and fun at the same time. Most people, if they allow themselves to, can be both.
It's being present, they started to trust me. They started to show me. And what I found out, and this was the most telling thing for me, was there was a social media group app that the operators had amongst themselves where they complained about SMART. They had picture evidence, they had all the things. There was some safety issues in there. And somebody trusted me enough to show it to me, but was like, "I can't put you in the group because that's a no-no." And I said, "Okay, if you trust me with this one problem and let me solve that, will you encourage others to come and tell me and the leadership team?" That one issue, solved it within a couple weeks, and they were like, "Hmm, maybe she might be all right." Then the next thing I know is another one. We're down now at this point, I can't really even hop out my vehicle good before somebody's walking over to me going, "Ms. Tiffany, I got a problem." And I'm like, "Okay, two seconds, I got a meeting and I'll be back."
So now I feel like even though we're still shifting the culture, there is a new level of trust and expectation that comes from them to me that I don't take lightly, and they feel that energy. I'm available to them just about whenever. If it's a 3:00 AM pull from the garage, I'm there every other month just to see how it's going. Last pull in the evening, show up just to watch and make sure that what we're doing at the end of the day is fair to the folks who are working that night shift. Are we bringing in the vehicles? Are we leaving too much work for the night mechanics and not enough during the day? All those things you got to pay attention to because if you don't, the contempt that begins to breed will eat your organization from the inside out and people will not feel motivated or productive. And that's what I've recognized in my team so far.
Carol:
Wow. I mean, there's a lot in there. It is phenomenal because what you talked about, that is a great case study to look at what it means to be present and to operate in terms of what you said about with respect, dignity, integrity, and honesty. Because building trust across siloed areas of your operation and building that bridge is challenging enough. But what I heard you say, the way that you were able to do that trust was first, just be present, just to show up, which is one of your principles. And that when the person showed you that group chat, you didn't punish them, you didn't chastise them, you didn't say, "How dare you and what kind of problem is this?" And shut it down immediately. You just said, "Let me just solve the problem." So you proved that they could trust you, that they could depend on you, they could rely on you.
And I think that's the biggest thing people miss with trust and psychological safety is that most people don't come forward because they're afraid of repercussions. So they do hide things and hiding things can cause big problems. And so by showing that, no, it's not going to be a problem. Let's solve it and let's solve it together or let me do it for you to demonstrate that, it opens up and builds that trust. And I think that's phenomenal, the way that you did that.
Tiffany:
Thank you. We've uncovered a lot of things here. Some of them I recognized, and I even had a moment where I had a board member get very frustrated with me because I was doing a lot of exigency contracts because they were emergencies that needed to be addressed. And the frustration, I felt it along with my board member. And that was, when is this going to stop? I feel like every month we're getting battered with something new, and that's public record. We were getting battered with something new. And I said, "Well, I'm not in the business of kicking cans. And I think that that's been the methodology here over the past years is that's too much to put on the public table, so let's just kind of patch it and hope."
We should fix it. And my mantra at work is fix it and fix it for good. And that has multiple meanings. So I said, "Look, until I'm able to bring in the consultant to work on the facility assessment and give us a prioritized list what I've discovered, I'm going to work to fix it because I want to make sure that everybody in this organization knows that they are important, that their safety is important, that their working conditions matter to me, and they matter to the board." And after we had that conversation, we both laughed and we're like, "Okay, we want the same thing." We're both exhausted by these ratifications. But at the same time, what's happening on the inside is that they know if they bring it to us, then we're going to do it. We're going to be brave and we're going to charge ahead and actually fix the problem and not bandaid it, not ignore it, not sweep it under the rug, not punish the person who told us about it, but instead fix it and fix it for good. That has changed the game here at SMART.
And I think that even the most disgruntled individuals who are here, and I don't say that with tongue in cheek, they're disgruntled because they had years of frustrations not answered. Even they are in that, "Let me see if she really don't keep this up [inaudible 00:18:37]."
Carol:
Yeah. They turned that little side eye, but they're like, "We're watching."
Tiffany:
They got 25 years here and they're like, "Yeah, she can't keep it up." And now they're kind of like, "Well, she's still going. All right, you sure? You sure you are who you say are?" And I said, "You know what? Trust is earned in drops and lost in buckets. And one thing I'm going to do is I'm going to fill this bucket up as best I can while I can, as long as this board will allow me to." So that's what we're doing.
Carol:
Okay. Repeat that again because that was awesome. Say it again because I just want to make sure that is clear and on the record because that's a saying that needs to be tweeted or captured someplace.
Tiffany:
And it's not mine. I got to credit my leadership after GOAT Jarrell Joseph, who I got it from, who got it from his dad, who was in the military. He was a Marine, I believe, if I got that right, Jarrell. It is that trust is gained in drops and lost in buckets. So it's hard to get, but once you lose it, all of it's out the window. So as long as every day I'm an honest broker, really working to make a difference in this organization, I think that team is believing me. And that's a good feeling.
We did our second annual bus rodeo just this past week. And we brought it back after 40 years. Somebody long time ago just decided we were going to stop competing. And a radio personality came out. Angie Starr, she's a local radio host. Everybody knows who she is. And she got on the radio that Monday and she said, "SMART treats its employees well." And I was like, "We do." I'm so glad you said it because what better HR advertisement can you have than a local radio host coming and seeing the fact that we gave them the good swag. We've got the good food trucks, we had the good DJs, we had the fun, the bouncy houses for the kids, a magician out. I mean, they really put on a good show and it's a family and friends event for our employees. And she saw that and she said, "You don't see that anymore. And I'm just so glad to see somebody is still doing that and still believes in treating their employees well." I know there's other companies out there doing it, but just so happens we got the spotlight this past week and it felt great to get it.
Carol:
That is just phenomenal. I mean, a lot of people say words, bandy words around like honesty and respect and dignity and integrity, but it's clear in everything that you're sharing how you're living it, that they're not just words, and every action that you've described thus far is demonstrating that. And if I had to ... You seem like a person who is a problem-solver and a fix-it person. That seems to be a theme, which is probably why the other question I had around when stakes are high and the pressure is, how you stay grounded in these values of respect, dignity, integrity, and honesty and being present, and it seems like that's why you're not reactionary to things, because you do rely on those values. Would that be a fair statement? Because when you see something, you're like, "Okay, well, let's fix it. Let's do something about it."
Tiffany:
It's a level of intensity that even sometimes I'm like, "Tiffany, turn it down a notch." But I can't help it. It's the way I was built. It's who I am and I got it. And I'm fortunate to have a team of folks who are kind of similar to me. And it's a range of the super producers and the regular producers and the lesser producers. But what happens is at the table, when we meet for our strategic governing team, I bring together our executives in the organization once a week to discuss the critical things that need to be happening. What don't I know? What do we need to know? And what should we be focused on? Because I'm a big believer in you shine a spotlight on your big problems until you minimize those problems. And even with people who may not have that same value system, it's almost like it catches them up in a tidal wave and now they're pushing because they recognize there's an accountability factor that never existed before.
Accountability is the grounding. If I could find one word, my household coming up, that was important. My mother told us that we had to focus, get good grades, and she held us accountable to that standard. So much so that even when I was left on my own, it was like, no, I have to do these things because this is what I'm expected to do. And that's kind of the standard you set. And I believe your team is going to rise to the standard you set for them, just like with my son. If I let him be lazy, he's going to absolutely meet that standard of lazy. If I insist that he does his chores and studies, then he does them because he knows that's the expectation and he gets really tired of mom's lectures because I can go real strong in the paint on a lecture. And I'm just like, "You're just going to have to hear it," and that's worse than anything, any other punishment, is that mom's going to lecture and you got to listen. So not to treat my employees like kids, but that accountability is, if I asked you for it, I did not forget that I asked you for it. We wrote it down, we set a timeline, and we expect it to move forward.
We have so many cohorts of our leadership team that are meeting to problem-solve. Maintenance issues. We've had a ton of maintenance issues over the past couple of years. We got to solve those maintenance issues. On the operations side, absenteeism and other things going on with bad behavior with operators and trying to understand why do they feel comfortable doing it? It's because no one's ever actually sat them down and been clear one garage to the next on those behaviors that are acceptable, what gets written up versus what doesn't get written up.
Guys, we got to get clear. Let's talk to each other. Those things have been uncomfortable. A lot of people have left, the people that aren't comfortable about accountability. And I understand that. I wish them full well in their journey. But in this organization, if that's not what you expect to do, then you shouldn't want to be here because it should be uncomfortable for you is how I feel about it. And at the end of the day, every month I do a full staff form. Anybody can come on. It's online. I don't care if you're an operator, mechanic, bus shelter cleaner or vice president, you are welcome to come and listen directly from me what I have to say about what's going on in the organization. Kill the grapevine. I don't want you gossiping about it. I said it. Or no, I didn't say that. It's recorded. You can go back and check it.
And so with that, I've helped them understand my why. That level of intensity doesn't just come because I'm some lunatic that loves working. It comes because I know that if that bus hadn't been there for my mom when she was trying to get to Marygrove, if that trip got missed, I don't know where she would've been. She wasn't in a great home situation at the time. She got my brothers and I out of a place that we didn't need to be in because she got her degree and she was able to elevate. So I know that it's core. They understand. I don't really care what their reason is. Somebody at a bus stop is either running to a job, from a bad situation, or some opportunity somewhere, and I don't want to let them down and nor should you. So if you work at SMART, that's our core value and you shouldn't want to let them down, period. That's it.
Carol:
Mm-hmm.
Tiffany:
So there's a bus shelter attendant. His name is Antonio. Antonio has only been with SMART for a couple of years, but he saw that we were doing a lot on social media, and he was like, "I'd love to talk about my why." And he did a video where he was like, "Some people would just say that I've cleaned buses. I don't see it that way." I mean, this video gripped me in my heart and made me so happy because he's like, "I'm keeping the public safe. I'm disinfecting this vehicle, so that it's ready for the next day."
They got him taking it through the bus wash. Antonio has to have a CDL to be a bus shelter attendant. He's not just a bus cleaner. He has to be able to manage, then navigate that terminal, understand the right chemicals that can be used, can't be used on certain surfaces. He takes his job with pride, and he was like, "I'm proud to be here at SMART, making sure that I do my part to keep everybody safe every day." And it's like, "Man. Man. Thank you, Antonio."
That was good. And it was like he didn't want a script because the PR team would be like, "Do you want us to write your script?" And he was like, "Hm, I got it." Because he meant it. It came from the heart. And it was just like, "Wow, thank you." I can't say enough great things about him because he really does take pride in it, and people have noticed the difference in our system.
Carol:
Yeah. Well, kudos, Antonio.
Tiffany:
Thank you, Antonio. I love it.
Carol:
I love that you share your why, that you're connecting the rationale, the decisions, the policies, to something core, that's important, that you're contributing and sharing with your people. I often tell people, "Everyone wants to be inspired by what they do. You think people just want to show up and get a paycheck? And there are people out there like that, but a lot of people really want to know that they're contributing to something and to have a vision around what they're doing and knowing that this one little thing they're doing has a broader impact." And the fact that you are meeting and sharing that I think is incredible.
I also love, I just have to comment as well, around I often talk about people ... I hear leaders talk about people not having accountability. And my first question is always, "Well, were they clear on what they should have been accountable for?" And there's sometimes a disconnect with that. And so going back and having that as a standard. And love what you said about your team will rise to the standard you set for them, is very true. And as long as you stay consistent in holding that to that accountability, which is incredible.
So my question is, you've risen through the ranks in that organization. How did you move from, I know you came in as a deputy or came back as a deputy and then to COO, and now you're in the top seat, as you move up there, moving from maybe peer relationships or people seeing you from one level to the top level, how did you prepare yourself for that transition? Because I know sometimes that could be challenging for people. I hear people say, "Oh, well, I've had this relationship and now all of a sudden I'm telling you what to do." And then that could be a struggle. So I'm just curious, I would love to hear your take on that and your journey in that transition.
Tiffany:
So in full transparency, I left SimCog and came back to SimCog before going to SMART. So in terms of coming back as a deputy executive director there, that's where I had the peer middle management experience. And that's a rough one because people think you owe them. People believe that that doesn't apply to me. That applies to them. But she knows me. She's known me for the last 10 years. That has happened.
And what I'm, I guess, somewhat proud of is that I have a very good moral compass that was instilled in me at an early age on fairness. And having three older brothers that did not make life easy most days of the week.
Carol:
I had one of those.
Tiffany:
Oh, man, they really gave me the business and I was a lone soldier as the only girl. And so it helped me establish boundaries and the ability to speak up for myself even when it was uncomfortable to do so. So those conversations, never out on the public stage, just a, "Hey, let's go to lunch and let's talk about this." And so that was effective, but in my current role, because I had to hire a lot of people, when I got to SMART, we didn't have anyone. I think the CFO was the only last man standing when I got there as deputies so I had to build along with my predecessor an entire leadership team, and that was hard. But a lot of those folks were people who I've worked with in the industry while growing up. So that vision of me was the kid that came up with them.
So I have a really great, great colleague. I rely on this individual for just about everything. And there came an instance where we had a media kerfuffle where it was possible I would've had to let him go. And I had an honest conversation with him. I said, "I hope that we can maintain a friendship and business relationship, but if at the end of this investigation it comes out this way, just understand I got to do what I have to do that's right for this organization. I would expect you to do the same." He respected me enough to say, "I understand and I just hope it goes well because I didn't do what they're saying I did."
It worked out. I didn't have to let him go. I joke with them now and I always say, "Hey, you know what? Yeah, I know I rely on you a hundred percent of the time, and I'm letting you go." It's a joke, but I would be lost without him, honestly. But the team understands that about me. I've had to make some difficult decisions with some people who I thought the world of and thought that they were exceptionally kind individuals and maybe promoted past their point of ability at some point along the way.
And given every chance, honestly, sometimes I get criticized for waiting a little too long to pull the plug on a situation that's not going to work out. But I believe at the end of the day, I got to be able to sleep at night with my decision-making. And so I'm going to give the opportunity for them to either rehabilitate themselves in that role or we're going to come to the agreement that this is not working out. And so I've had to do that a couple of times here at SMART and not one of those decisions have I taken lightly because I tend to like people. Carol, I'm pretty friendly. I mean, people think I'm supposed to act a certain way as an executive, but I'm just like, I'm not that. I'm just Tiffany at the end of the day.
So in doing that, it's hard, but, I've explained this to some of my other leaders, it's almost a rite of passage. When you know you have to make a difficult decision, even with someone that you've worked side by side with for 10 or 12 years, do your assessment and recognize that you don't fire people, kind of people fire themselves. And if you come to the end of the road and you see that it's not going to work out, be as gentle as you can be, but be as disciplined as you can be in that conversation so that you're not giving them some reason to believe that it was personal. Stick to the facts, you let them know that you wish them well, and you move on. And that has been the cadence over the years. And that's the most sombering part of the job is when you got to reset a team. It changes the group dynamic. Everybody gets scared for a little while. Is it going to be me next? And it's like, should it be you next? Why are you asking that question? I don't know.
Carol:
I like that. Well, should it be you?
Tiffany:
And you got to let people got to reset a bit. And you get back to the group dynamic and then you got to work another individual into that setting where they're not used to working with that person. And sometimes people can be a little abrasive or not quite picking it up as fast. And they're like, "Yeah, this person is like ..." "No, no. Same grace we give on exit, we give on entry, and that's how we're going." Yes.
Carol:
Yeah. I love that you said that because that was going to be my next question is how are you instilling your leadership style into your leadership team? And for them to be able to pick up and have those same values and to have that trickle down throughout the organization because you just don't want it to stop with you. You want obviously it to be replicated throughout the system. And sometimes that could be problematic, particularly as you were pulling people together and there may be some thoughts at the bottom, but you're doing things up here. How are you bridging that so that is felt and experienced all the way through the organization?
Tiffany:
It is hard to do.
Carol:
It's hard to do.
Tiffany:
Hi, honey. My son just got home. I got to say hi. So it is hard to do because everybody's grown. And some people believe that their way is the best way and change is hard for a lot of people. So one of the first things that I did after being appointed into this role was there's a consultant, [inaudible 00:33:54]. And I think if you've ever heard him speak, he's just so motivating, but he shares and talks about culture in an organization and value. And I asked him to come to do my first all-staff with me. We did a three-hour online workshop, and I know there's an online tolerance that people have. We had over 140 participants for the better part of three hours that day. Everybody stayed on, everybody listened. We talked about how we get to do what we do. It's not that we have to do it, but we get to do it and how important that is. And so trying to get into people's why was first order of business. That was three days after I got appointed.
After that, the staff forums have been very pivotal in helping people to understand how I think and how I move in my expectations. But with the leadership team, we are actually coming up on our next leadership retreat soon in the next two months. I intend to host another leadership retreat where we sit down and talk about strategic vision. I have to make sure I make clear to them, I don't expect everybody to either get along or be happy every day or do things exactly my way. What I expect from them is a strategic focus that they don't waver from, a fairness and respect that they give to every person, and mindfulness about responsiveness amongst them as team members. And if we're doing that, respect is at the core of that.
And I talk about respect as risk mitigation. So if you're not responsive to the procurement department when they're trying to purchase your vehicles, that's a lack of respect, it's a lack of resources, and it could get us in a world of hurt when our vehicles start falling apart and we can't replace them and so now we have a safety issue as well and an on-time performance issue. And I try to connect all the pieces of their jobs together so that they look at each other as colleagues and they almost have to see it as I have to be able to work with everybody. There is a variety of personalities on the team from day to day. It's like, okay, you can't go to HR on them. You got to go ... Relax. Take a breather. We're all vice presidents or above.
Emotional IQ is important to me. And I assign books. I do love to read. My favorite one that I assigned to the team was The Empowerment Dynamic by David Emerald. It is about 150 pages. It's an easy, quick read. And what it talks about is what I think a lot of agencies, authorities, and just regular corporations deal with every day, and it's the dreaded drama triangle. And that is where there is an oppressor, somebody causing the problem, there's the oppressed person, and then there's a rescuer, somebody to come in with their cape and save the day. And there's this triangle that you're always playing one of these roles. And the premise of the book is you need to transcend that. You need to elevate and become a creator. So if we're being creative, there's no time to be a victim. There's no time to be an oppressor. You're actually making something new happen. And when you're doing that, there's a freshness and an air that comes with that.
So being creative is kind of my goal is think about your department. What do you want? We have pulled off some things that people can't believe at SMART. We received a BUILD grant for $25 million just about a month ago, and it was like we got whiplash so fast with the new news of passing the ballot initiative that we're not even like, we're like, "Wait, wait, we're still celebrating that one but now we got another one happening." And it's really, sometimes they looked at me a little crazy like, "Are we actually applying for this? We've never done this before." And I'm like, "But why not? Why not?" Because we've never been creators. We've been dealing with each other. We've been insular in our own echo chamber infighting and not growing. Let's stop all that. There's a world of opportunity out there and there's funding that's available for us to be able to go after our dreams and really showcase in Southeast Michigan for the first time what we could be as a transit authority. So let's do that.And that has helped reduce down that friction and that drama. I can't say that I've eliminated it. That's not true. It's still there. We're working on it.
Carol:
Well, people are people, right?
Tiffany:
People are people [inaudible 00:38:09] people. Oh, yes. They're peopling a lot.
Carol:
Exactly, exactly. There's never perfection in the messiness of a human. So you have to build and work with what you have and bring the people along that can be and hold still and steady with the ones who just want to sit there and kind of side-eye and watch you go along. So ...
Tiffany:
Yes.
Carol:
For sure.
Tiffany:
I have a chief marketing officer, his name's Bernard, and he always says, "When it gets a little intense, you put up two fingers." He said, "Do you even realize you do that?" I said, "That's the church girl in me that ..."
Carol:
Yes. Amen and hallelujah.
Tiffany:
Okay.
Carol:
But I do love, it's a challenging thing when people are coming into a new team or bringing in. One of the things that I always tell people, "When new people are coming in, you have to reset the whole board." It's never a just continue on and hope they catch up. To your point of talking about grace, you reset the board and let's all start again together moving forward in terms of where we're going to go. But leaning into them and giving them resources, the pillars of our framework are leader awareness, empowered ecosystems, and adaptive continuous learning, and everything you talked about in terms of understanding self as a leader and just really getting clear on your values and how you show up. But definitely having an appalled ecosystem is what you talked about in terms of getting to know people's why, bringing them into the conversation, hearing from them in that three-hour meeting, talking about inspiration, and just really being real. And then connecting with your team with retreats and things of that nature.
And I love, from adaptive continuous learning, it's like how do we continue to grow and iterate and become better so you don't live in that echo chamber? And I love that you're giving them something to read and going after opportunities that they haven't thought about before so that they're always iterating to a new level and not just regurgitating or stagnating in the same kind of insular thinking that may happen when you don't go out that way. So I just love that everything you talked about just really aligns so well with the kind of things that we work with and teach organizations on as well. And you're seeing fruits of that labor too with all the wins that you've been having of late, which is incredible.
Tiffany:
It is really remarkable. And the team right now, I did a special edition staff forum post-election yesterday, and I asked the IT team, so they run the Zooms for us, I said, "Can I have one thing? I know I ask a lot of you," quick turnaround. I said, "Can I ask one more thing?" And they're like, "What do you want, Ms. G?" And I said, "I would really love for the song Double Dutch Bus to be playing when I come on." I mean, how fun. The energy [inaudible 00:40:56]-
Carol:
How fun. Yes.
Tiffany:
We know that it's a decisive win. All the precincts are in. There's no, "Maybe," "We're still waiting." It's absolute. So when it came on, when I opened it up, I was a couple minutes early, it wasn't planned. So I turned my video off really quickly because I'm like, "I need my intro music." And so I was like, "I'm going to wait a second and see it because now maybe they can't figure it out. I'll let it go." And then I heard it playing and I saw the faces of the folks that were sitting on the call. We had about 90 or so folks on the call at the time and instantly in every little square you could see a little ...
Carol:
Mm-hmm.
Tiffany:
And then the group chat lit up, "Is this what we're doing? Okay, SMART." I saw the little emojis, all the things happening. And it was like people felt relieved. It's been a pressure cooker this year. You cannot have big errors in a year where you are going out and the whole region is watching you to determine whether or not the value proposition you say you are is really what you can deliver. So we've been on it. But my little secret they didn't realize was happening was you did it though. The discipline was there and it is possible. When you show up and give your effort, this is what it can look like. And doesn't that feel good? So what I said in the staff forum was, I know this was a hard year, but next year is going to be harder because now we told them what our value proposition was, now we have to live up to it. So everything you got accustomed to this year, let's get ready to turn it up a notch and give them what they don't even expect. And that's better than what they thought we could do.
Because this year was a great year. Up 25% system-wide. The 30% is on our busiest route, but system-wide, we're up 25% in ridership right now, June over June. And I was like, "That's because we're showing up more on time. Our buses are cleaner. Our customer service is more responsive. Our social media is off the charts. I mean, they don't let me go home." I tell them the whole external affairs marketing communications team is apparently my boss because they tell me where I got to be all the time. But the end result is our social media is consistent. We built a brand identity. People identify with SMARTie. That's our mascot. They identify with SMART and they see us as part of the community, not something that sends down on their community, but something that we're where you are. We show up to all you-
Carol:
Yeah, you're nurturing and supporting the community.
Tiffany:
Yes. And so now that they see that, we don't win and then go home and stop doing what we did to get the win. We started this when I got to SMART. I said, "I cannot stand the idea of starting to talk to the public when you need something. You got to talk to them consistently. Tell them who you are." So when you do make an ask, just like with a friend, you got the friends that only call you when you need something and you're like, "Oh, okay. Do you now? I hope you figure that out." That's kind of how you do it with the friends that only call you when they need something. But the friend that's there and talks with you and you know the journey and you understand what's going on with them. SMART needed to be that friend to the community so when it was time for us to have an ask [inaudible 00:44:16] on the ballot, people were like, "Yeah, SMART, of course we need them. Of course they're part of the community." It wasn't a question. And that's what you don't take for granted. And so this next year is the big thank you year of you trusted us and now we got to show you that we can perform to the level you expect of us.
Carol:
Yeah. Well, and I have to say, because you're creating the space and environment for them to flourish and do that work makes such a big difference. It's like that announcer said, if people love working there and it's a good place to work, then that's going to come through in the output. And the fact that you're even positioning them to not say, "Wow, we did it, but it's going to be more next year, so let's get it together," is just preparing people for what's next. When you said it it reminded me of that scene, and I think it was Elf or one of those Christmas movies where they tell the elves like, "Successful Christmas. Now let's start for next year." And they're like, "Yay."
Tiffany:
It's one of my favorite movies. So one day and we're back.
Carol:
Exactly. And they're excited. They're like, "Yeah, let's go to work. Let's make it happen."
Tiffany:
And I think eight times out of 10, that was the reaction of that group that was on the call was, let's get it, SMART. We have never had or enjoyed ... And this is just, I think it's just generational, traditional. What they've been used to is you keep your head down, you don't ruffle many feathers, you just provide the service and stay quiet, and hopefully nobody will come for your neck. This idea that we can step into who we truly are as the Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation, and people can look and say, "Yep, we trust them and it's actually happening." That's new for them. That's a good feeling. And one of my litmus tests, when we introduced SMARTie, our mascot, it was a quiet kind of rollout. Now I've got folks, "Can I get a SMARTie hat?" We had to build an online portal for our employees to be able to go and purchase their own swag because we couldn't keep up.
Carol:
Wow.
Tiffany:
They're getting their own SMARTie swag and it's like that's pride in your organization-
Carol:
Absolutely.
Tiffany:
... to want to be able to purchase your own and wear it on your own. And I have my own collection of SMARTie things that I too went on the website to buy because SMARTie's adorable. And it's just another way in which we show up in the community. There's a literal mascot that walks around. It's like a big circle. The S is really ... This is funny. I don't know who thought of this, but the S in SMARTie is like a snail in the logo.
Carol:
Oh, that's interesting.
Tiffany:
And we're not slow. We're not slow. We're not slow. We're not slow. It's a fast snail. We got a super snail. So we're trying to just move towards SMARTie, but I'm working with what I got here. And it's just this gigantic mascot that walks around with their arms out and shaking kids' hands and they're taking pictures and it's become such a popular feature at events that now DDOT, our sister brother organization in the city, is preparing to do their own mascot as well.
Carol:
Oh, okay.
Tiffany:
Going to have them do some jousting battles or something. I don't know what we're going to do with it. I'm competitive. But they'll have friendly handholding events, I guess.
Carol:
Yes, yes, yes.
Tiffany:
But we'll make it fun.
Carol:
That is incredible. That impact that you're having that people want to mimic and duplicate what you're doing. That's amazing.
Tiffany:
Yeah, that feels good. That does feel good.
Carol:
That's amazing. I want to turn things to AI. Talk a little bit about AI. And SMART's modernization push includes rider-facing technology, on-demand micro-transit that's exploding in places like Pontiac and Dearborn, and better communication tools. And across every industry, AI is now part of the conversation. And I'm curious as AI reshapes your team's work, how are you keeping people, not just technology, at the center of those decisions?
Tiffany:
AI, the way, the future. It is hard to get your arms around the breadth and depth of the possibility. So what I've asked the team to do in their own respective departments is let's talk a bit about it. And actually one of the things we're bringing to the retreat is their ideas on integrating AI into their respective departments. My focus has been more heavy on AI for the use of operating efficiency and how can we do some predictive maintenance to help? That's a place where we are oftentimes finding ourselves short-staffed, and it's a job that's critical to the health and success of the organization. So if there are tools that are out there that allow us to assist our mechanics in being more effective, more productive, and less of the figuring and more of the action to get things solved, that would be outstanding and great progress for us.
We're building what's called a maintenance lab. I think it might be one of the first of its kind, but it's really just a training facility, but it's going to be a place where our maintenance guys really, and gals, because we have mechanics that our ladies as well, will have the ability to go tinker with the engines coming from the different shops and the transmissions and learn how to evolve their skillset.
The other side of that is on the operations side. For the longest time, and I did not understand this, our on-time performance suffered so much, and I was like scratching my head, how are these other agencies figuring this out? Technology. There are technological tools that we are now investing in. We've done some piloting with a driver software that can really show them individually their on-time performance and help assess the route so we know if we're planning for something that's impossible for them to meet. And using that software, one of the greatest arguments I've ever had for procurement was this. We had a route that was, I asked for the 10 underperforming routes to use the software to see if we could improve them. One of those routes was performing at 35% on-time performance. 3-5. Abysmal. And after we sat down, the operations team sat down with the driver, talked about it, they found out that the way it was planned wouldn't work in the real world. So they made some adjustments, they tweaked it. They now are operating at 88% on time.
Carol:
Wow.
Tiffany:
This one route. And it was because we hadn't communicated with the planning team versus the operations team and with the software to show where things were, where we were bottlenecking and we couldn't make the time that we had promised on the schedule. That route is doing numbers. I can't wait to see, it's still too soon to tell how the ridership changes when you show up on time, but we're making sure that the folks that we could communicate with know that route is better than you ever seen it before. Let's get it. And so I intend to do that surgically with every single route, but you could do it so much faster with an AI than you can when you can only see what's in front of you. This can take all of that and synthesize it way more effectively.
And then from there, the AV world, we are looking at what JTA in Jacksonville has done with the NAVI. We're salivating. We're like, "Oh, how cool is that? If we could figure that out, that would be great." And I know that the state of Michigan is working on some AV corridors that we can start to plug into. What I'm excited about at SMART is that we're now part of the conversation. We're not being told what intervention is going to happen after the fact. We're at the table as it's being developed, and that is a big win for me personally and for the organization as well.
Carol:
Yeah. Well, I love how you're talking about the use of AI because I do think there's been, like you said, so much, so many conversations, so many places around where they are with AI. But you starting with the conversations first, because when I talk to organizations about becoming AI-ready or their readiness or availability for it, I always say there's three things that you have to have, and that is the framing of the conversation. Why are we using it? How are we going to use it? Who are we going to be with it? And you finding those places, having the conversation and talking about that first, is not often where people start. They start with the tool. They start with the tool or governance or which tool do we use? How do we use it? How do we teach people how to use it? Without having that conversation first with your team about what do we think about it? How do we want to use it? Who are we going to be with it? Is it going to be a tool to augment to support certain aspects or are we going to let it infiltrate all the way through? And then you talk about structure and tools and governance, and then there's the evaluation piece.
So I talk about framing, structure, and evaluation. And I love that you're starting with the conversation.
Tiffany:
Thank you.
Carol:
That you're just talking about knowing there's ways to use it, but just really starting with your leadership about what do you think about it, come with your ideas and your perspective. Because if the people aren't on board with it, if the people don't understand the use of it or why you're using it or how to use it as a tool and not a replacement, that could cause a whole nother snafu within the organization.
Tiffany:
Carol, I made the mistake of talking about AV technology one day casually in a garage where there are operators whose lives depend on it. And I would tell you, it sent a shockwave of panic that we're looking at getting driverless vehicles. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I can't say it more emphatically. Absolutely not. Not only is SMART not ready for it, the region around us would be like, "Oh, no, I'm not getting on that. That's not happening." So I just want to make sure I'm clear on the record in case any of my operators are watching. That's not where this is headed. What we're talking about when we talk about AV technology is how do we take that micro-transit ... That model is expensive. We are learning a lot of lessons from our other partner agencies across the nation that went in really, really aggressive. And what we're finding is there's no limit on demand.
Once you start introducing micro-transit, you can keep throwing more and more resources at it and it's going to keep rising, trying to keep travel time down and the wait time down. And still we're seeing great gains. We're up 49% in the micro-transit world right now, and we've put a lot more into it, but we're also seeing a lot more pressure on the system. So what do we do? And that's where in those kind of interurban areas, you may look at AV technology, that's where they're really, really popular. And they're only going two, three miles at a time at most, maybe a half mile, mile in some cases. Maybe that's where AV technology belongs. It's not replacing people, it's just trying to find intervention so that I can maintain costs and still manage this program at the same time.
So couldn't be more clear on that conversation is so critically important. It kind of got thrust upon me more than I ... I'd love to take credit for it, but we realized everybody started writing papers that looked the same. And we were like, "Where is this dash coming from in all these emails?" And I was like, ah, I finally used it once and I'm like, "Ah, that's the dash. They should learn to erase that dash. It's a helpful hint." Since we're here and since we're using it, let's figure out how we can make it work for [inaudible 00:56:00].
Carol:
Well, I hear you about the readiness of AV vehicles because, I don't know, I think maybe my generation, I like to know there's somebody behind the wheel.
Tiffany:
Most people do. Most people do. Most people do.
Carol:
So listen, this has been an incredible conversation. The region just voted for the first time in history as one connected county, as you talked about, which is great. And whatever happens next in Southeast Michigan Transit will be built by leaders watching how you all do this in terms of what you do next. So if you can leave leaders with just one shift, one practice, or one mindset to be more people-forward in creating that environment that allows people to do such incredible things as they've done within your agency, what would it be?
Tiffany:
Listen to learn. Not just listening to be present, but to really learn from folks. What I asked of every department, and I meant it, was for them to give us innovative ideas. I was like, "Guys, you do this every day. I don't know the best way to do your job. I don't walk in assuming. Please don't think I know how. I don't know. I can and have driven a bus. I don't know how to do it every day. I don't know how you manage it every day. But there are things that happen on that bus that if we created a different environment for you, i.e. that technology that says drive now, you're about three minutes behind, that right there, that technology, if you have that and it makes your job better, I heard you, I'll make sure it happens."
Even down to simple things, if you're an admin and you can see that there is a clear disconnect when we go to schedule and you are like, "If they just do the ... Everybody does this at work. Boy, I know how to fix that. If they just did X, Y, and Z, it would be better." Bring that to the table. There are no consequences. And that's what I would say. I listen to learn. And then from that, we could do a lot of great things because we're leaning on each other's experiences. And if you combine them, you pretty much are unstoppable.
Carol:
Yeah, I love that. Listen to learn. Well, listen, Tiffany, thank you for the conversation.
Tiffany:
Thank you. This was fun.
Carol:
This was good. This was so many great things. I just love your style and the impact and the successes you've had. And I just have to say one more time, congratulations on 10 years in the making but finally done.
Tiffany:
Yes, I'm going to take a nap. I haven't had a nap in years. I'm going to intentionally go to sleep at 3:00 o'clock one day and see how that feels.
Carol:
Yes. You deserve it. You have earned it for sure. For sure.
Tiffany:
Thank you so much for the time. I have really enjoyed this conversation. Kind of a reflection or a recap of what we've been through this past year. It's been a lot and I'm just so grateful. Any of my team members that listen to this, I hope they understand just how much I appreciate. I could not do this on my own. I'm not some superhero. I leaned on them and they showed up for this organization and for me as well. So that's [inaudible 00:59:05].
Carol:
Yeah. Fabulous. Fabulous. Well, you've definitely shown us what it looks like when a leader treats dignity as an operating principal. And as I said, this week, your entire region voted to move forward together, and that's what people-forward leadership makes possible. So I'm grateful that you shared everything that you shared over this year. I mean, can you even believe it's just been a year since you've been in this role?
Tiffany:
Yes.
Carol:
And to everyone listening, if this conversation gave you something you needed, please share it with a leader in your world who needs it too. And you could learn more about our work at thriveaccessgroup.com or reach out to us anytime at hello@thriveaccessgroup.com. Until next time, keep leading people forward and I'll see you soon.
Tiffany:
Thank you.
